0:00:00 - Jesper Conrad
Welcome to Self-Directed. We are your hosts, cecilia and Jesper Conrad, and now it's time to welcome this week's guest. 

0:00:11 - Cecilie Conrad
Got it, here we are. 

0:00:13 - Jesper Conrad
Yes, okay, so today we have the pleasure of talking with Sari and Becka, who is all the way down in Mexico, and I would love to start right there Down, down Over. 

0:00:29 - Sari González
Over Yes. 

0:00:31 - Jesper Conrad
Over, down and around Over down and around, If we can start right there. how did each of you end up in Mexico? 

0:00:42 - Becka Koritz
Wow, do you want to? 

0:00:43 - Sari González
start Sarri, i ended up in Mexico. I took a big leap of faith. How did I end up in Mexico? Yeah, it's a long story, but I'll try to keep it concise. I have been coming to Mexico back and forth for about 25 years. My best friend is Mexican And I always had this dream of opening not opening, but like having a learning center in Mexico. And on one of my trips I came and saw that there was an agile learning center in the area that I was visiting, and so I found out that it was run by a fellow Swede, because I am also was born in Sweden, and so I was like stalking Bekka for like a good month And I was, like we got to meet and run a center in New York, like I want to meet you, i want to meet your community. And so we met. We were supposed to meet for a juice. We ended up talking for hours. 

At the time I was still living in New York, i was running a center in New York and had the itch to leave New York at some point of my life because I was just running the New York rat race, unschooling my son and doing all the New York things. And so when Beck and I met. A seed was planted there for us to perhaps collaborate in the future. Went back to New York. Pandemic hit, started still directing my center, co-directing my center online, but I did that in Mexico. So, like took a flight, my family and I looked at each other We're like hell, no, we're not spending the pandemic in New York. Like we're going back to Mexico. 

Came back to Mexico, was doing a bunch of stuff online, still supporting our New York community and involved there, and then kind of things just flourished from there And we decided to stay and began like directing the program that Becca had founded here called Explora, and since then it's just been a wild journey of unfolding and unlearning and relearning and reimagining and inventing, reinventing, and so, yeah, this is home for us now. We ended up staying and, yeah, what else can I say? That's, that's what brought me here. 

0:02:54 - Cecilie Conrad
The short version. 

0:02:56 - Sari González
Yeah, the short, the really a bridge version There's a lot. 

0:02:59 - Cecilie Conrad
We need to start somewhere, don't we? 

0:03:02 - Jesper Conrad
And Becca, what about you? 

0:03:03 - Becka Koritz
And me, well, i was living in Sweden, i was, i was I must have been like 31 or something And I started going into this kind of life crisis where I was like I don't know what I want to do with my life And I came to the conclusion that the only thing that I knew for sure that I didn't want was to continue living in Sweden. And so, like, suddenly I had this, i had this thought in my head, which was basically Mexico, and I had never been to Mexico. I didn't know anyone in Mexico. I spoke some Spanish, but not really, and I was like I don't have a better idea. I'm going to go to Mexico and I didn't tell anyone. I think I told my sister and one friend that I knew were going to support me fully, but for the rest, i was like I'm not telling anyone, because if I do, they're going to tell me I'm crazy. So I left and traveled around a little bit to find my spot, stopped in the city of Oaxaca And I was like, oh, i kind of like it here and figured out that I needed to continue work as a teacher, because I am a trained teacher, and so I was like, okay, that was the way to get all the permits and to stay legally in Mexico. 

So I started, or I continued, teaching, but at university level I was a French teacher and hated it. Teaching is that kind of teaching is not my thing. And so, yeah, little by little I kind of decided to quit, got pregnant, had my son in 2005. So he was born in the city of Oaxaca, and that's where it kind of hit me. I was like, oh, i have a kid now. I do not want him to be in the traditional system. There is no way. And so that's how I ended up co-founding a tiny school. It was the first alternative school in Oaxaca City And after a year it turned into a Waldorf inspired preschool. And after a couple of years we were kind of like this city is growing and this is not what we wanted. 

And so we moved down to the Pacific Coast where I founded another Waldorf inspired school, and my kid absolutely hated it. He was seven, and that's when we realized that, oh, not only does he hate it, he has autism. That must be the thing, right, because he's not behaving like others. We already knew that. But it's like when kids are smaller, they're so eccentric. Anyway, you can kind of like, yeah, whatever kids are what they are, but the older they get, you kind of get more expectations on how they kind of should behave. But I stuck with it. I was like I'm running this, i need to be here, you need to be here. And we did that until he turned 10, which is where he was really just like hating life and hating me. I think, too, for forcing him to go to this awful place, that he really just couldn't stand, and that's where we took a leap of faith and were like, ok, let's ditch this. Waldorf is not our thing, school is not our thing. And so we started unschooling And at the same time, i was like but what am I going to do now? 

All I know is how to start and run educational projects. So that's how I started Explora, our Agile Learning Center. Yeah, and the rest is history. Of course, a lot of stuff has happened since then. I've produced a lot of content, especially in Spanish, around self-directed education, unschooling, and when Sadi found me and knocked on the door, i was so done. I did not want to continue directing any kind of program, and so it was really a blessing to be able to be like here, have the keys with you, but you do it, and so, yeah, perfect. Then we started radical learning. 

0:07:33 - Jesper Conrad
Which is also why I invited you to the podcast. Before going more into unschooling and radical learning and everything you do there, as we are currently on our world travels in Sweden for two weeks and you're both originally from, i would like to ask can we bash Sweden a little? No, no, no, no, i'm joking. No, no, no It comes in the right place. We're kind people But we have a lot of friends. Can I say something? 

0:08:08 - Cecilie Conrad
Just to put the context for whoever has never heard about us before We're Danish, so we're neighbors, and it's kind of fun that I didn't know that you were both Swedish before this conversation. So it's like talking to the neighbor kind of, and maybe that's why you sort of want to bash Sweden. 

0:08:32 - Jesper Conrad
No, no, no, It's not, no, no, no. The thing is. 

0:08:35 - Cecilie Conrad
The only thing is the mandatory school the mandatory schooling mandatory schooling is scary. It is scary, Yeah for real. Because in Sweden you can't do it. No, there are lots of countries where it's illegal to unschool. Homeschooled people do it anyway. 

0:08:52 - Becka Koritz
Yeah, yeah, i mean, i mean I'm happy that you're bringing it up, because this is like this has been like a continuous struggle that I have been in for years now, like I have I'm like the advocate against mandatory schooling in Sweden. I have been running an account called a school from scratch for a long time And I'm always like very critical towards that system and always trying to show them that there are other ways. It doesn't have to be like this, because they have so many school wounded kids, so many children that don't, that can't go, because they get so damaged by the system and nobody wants to look at it, which I find very interesting and also very, very kind of Swedish. So, yeah, i'm, i'm I don't know what to tell you like I'm, you know. I think it's easier to talk to Swedes that live abroad. 

0:09:55 - Cecilie Conrad
Well, that's the Swedes we know, mostly because they moved out, because they wanted to homeschool. 

0:10:00 - Jesper Conrad
In both. In Denmark, we have a lot of political refugees from Sweden who have left the country due to not being able to own school. 

0:10:10 - Cecilie Conrad
But, to be honest, my grandmother was Swedish And so most of my family is from here and my father still lives in Sweden. So we're, we have close, close connections over here and it's beautiful, it's a, it's really beautiful, and I find it surprising. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, i'm from Scandinavia. I left to because you can't, you can't stay between October and March. That's just impossible, and from March to June it's kind of not so good, and then it gets better. No, no, no, i get you, but I just find it very interesting that the two neighboring countries in Denmark, it's a constitutional right that we can teach our own. And then I just crossed the bridge. I mean, i can see Sweden from my home home, copenhagen, and just across the water, it's, it's fascism, isn't it? 

0:11:09 - Becka Koritz
Yes, i mean like it's really hard, but there's some kind of total, total, what is it called? Allitarian, Totalitarian yes, there's something very, very awkward and very strange that has happened And I think that they are still not catching up with what it actually is. I think that they're still like telling themselves the story of like we're such a democratic country, education is a right for everyone, and they haven't noticed how it's like shifted into something very totalitarian. 

0:11:43 - Cecilie Conrad
Yeah, that's scary, especially because it seems that most of us too. 

0:11:49 - Sari González
Maybe not mandatory schooling, but the mindset of people not really being able to have like sovereignty, to be sovereign and to have choice over their minds, their bodies. I mean Sweden with the education system. It's like the extreme, but it's happening in other places and other corners of the world as well. So, yeah, it's, we live in a really interesting time. I like to think that we're at a threshold actually, that there are people like us that are aware that this shit is happening and things need to change, and so we're kind of taking reclaiming our power. 

0:12:39 - Jesper Conrad
Absolutely, sari. We heard the Baker story about how she started to get into on schooling due to her son, so I would love to hear yours as well. You sounded like you already were on that track in New York. 

0:12:55 - Sari González
Yeah, i'll tell you, i think my journey with unschooling and de-schooling really began well began I was for a while I've been saying it began when I became pregnant, because it was the first time that I really had to confront a lot of what we're talking about now, like, for me, it was about, like pregnancy and birth and realizing the powers that kind of were taking, being taken away from me within the birthing industry and so that I decided to have a home birth and decided to kind of go like as natural as possible with my pregnancy, and that, i think, was the doorway into what is now unschooling and de-schooling, because it was the first time that I could say like, oh no, like I'm not gonna do the thing that I always thought I was gonna do, because somebody always said I needed to do it. I'm gonna actually like, educate myself on what my options are and lean into my intuition. And so, yeah, we had a home birth and then my son was born and then, like, medical decisions And when he was two I lived in New York. So it was like you're gonna get on the wait list for whatever school or did you do the school visit? I'm like he's freaking two years old. What are you talking about? There were wait lists for schools And so I started investigating a lot of like what the landscape of education looked like in New York And I grew up in New York. 

So I left Sweden when I was younger with my family. I still have all of my mother's side of the family is there, but we left the three of us left when I was young, and so I grew up in New York and I grew up in the New York City Public School System And so I know very well what that system is about And I didn't want that for my son. And so when I started looking around with the alternatives where I went to a Waldorf school, i went to Montessori and nothing. It didn't feel right. It still felt limiting and restricting. And as we learn about our kids, we learn kind of what they're, who they are and what they need, and I knew from a really early age, when my son was young, that he has some very unique needs And I did not want to put him in a box because I knew he would not thrive. And so that's when I discovered agile learning and self-directed education. I met this group in the local park and they happened to be like a cooperative And it wasn't so much on schooling but it was more like agile learning. And so we became a part of that community. 

I volunteered, fast forward, i became the director of that, you know, a facilitator and director of that community. The original founders left. I took it over with my co-director at the time and then fast forward, fast forward, fast forward. Here I am, but really, for me from the very beginning, it became clear that we wanted something outside of the system, because I could recognize, having lived it myself, that the system would not fulfill our needs And I really wanted to give my son the opportunity to become and be himself, and not define who he was, but rather support him to divine himself and grow into himself. 

And so, yeah, now I'm like really on the other extreme of unschooling and homeschooling, where it's like we've now. Our center is now like more of like an immersion pop-up community, so we don't even have a 12 month program because we recognize that there are other things we wanna do throughout the year and other ways we want to learn and explore and play in our lives. And so, yeah, it's just like this unending journey of figuring out, like what moves us and what speaks to us and what excites us and how we can play more with an inner pop. 

0:16:56 - Cecilie Conrad
Can you just find, for those who don't know it, the difference? so what's agile learning compared to the concept of unschooling and what is an agile learning center? And when you say we, who is that We play we want? So that's three questions in one. 

0:17:17 - Sari González
Yes, let's start with the first Learn professional Self-directed learning, i think, is kind of like a framework or an approach to looking at education and looking at learning Within that is, our agile learning centers, right. So self-directed education like many can consider Waldorf to be self-directed or some Montessori programs to be self-directed if children, young people are able to kind of choose how and what they're learning. Other people would disagree with that, but that's just the general frame. Yeah, i would as well, but I'm just being like the people of those that don't. 

0:17:56 - Cecilie Conrad
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I am listening and I just think we need to get the concepts clear, because we're talking, but we're within this lifestyle and have been so for many, many years, but maybe not everyone listening are familiar with all the terms and the differences, so let's talk about them. 

0:18:15 - Sari González
Yeah, so that's a general umbrella of self-directed right. Agile learning is within that, which is a framework, so it comes from the agile model, which was actually a software and business development model that was applied to education, and it's very much about like coming together in community. There are tools that we use to make it like a collaborative process communication tools, but still within let's just put it this way There's a saying that says, like you see one agile learning community and you see one agile learning community, there is a spectrum. So there are some agile learning that are still very much like top down adults have a lot of say and influence over what young people are doing and how the space looks. And then, on the other end of the spectrum, there's like more learner voice in how the environments are crafted, and so I would say that we when I say we, i mean our agile learning community, the work that Becca and I are doing, the community that we've cultivated together with others as well, is more on the other end of the spectrum. We're now. We're like playing with what, what do we all want it to look like? And so we still consider ourselves an agile learning community, because agility is about flexibility and about meeting people where they're at. But I would say, of the agile learning world, we're pretty radical in our approach And so we don't have a full year program. 

We have adopted a lot of principles like flying squads, like taking things from flying squads, that kind of fit and work for us. We do it based on, like, what really works for the needs of the community instead of this structure. So it's kind of like people that say like oh, we home school. It's like great, are you doing home, are you doing school at home? or art, because you can bring school and all that school is and all the power dynamics that are happening in school home. 

But what changes then? Just literally the setting, whereas for us it's about us being myself, becca, our families like what we're trying to do is really center relationship and center communication and center emotional intelligence and center like who we are in this world, what drives us, what moves us, what interests us, how can we play and learn together in the world? And so that might not even be here on the ground. It might be traveling, it might be taking a month to go do something you love, it might be resting, it might be napping, it might be playing video games for eight hours straight, like whatever it is for the people that are involved. So that's sorry. 

0:21:13 - Becka Koritz
Yeah, i would probably add that in the beginning, like an agile learning center could be called an unschooling school many times, and that is definitely where I think that we were earlier in the history of Xlora, and now it is more like leave the school part out, like by questioning do we really need to have a space? Do we really need to function every day? Does it have to be a place where parents just drop off their kids? Like no, like how do we wanna live our lives in community without having to live together and cook together and do all of that other stuff, but rather like focusing on as what you're saying, zadi, like relationships, like who are we together? 

0:22:06 - Cecilie Conrad
But just to understand it and to be honest, i'm sure you're doing amazing stuff And at the same time, i'm personally very resistant and have resistance to these things because I think they very often and I hear clearly that it's probably not the case with you guys, but they become very school-ish. These structures And I don't think it comes from the people who started usually comes from the parents dropping off their kids than they expect when they pick them up. 

0:22:36 - Becka Koritz
They read whatever. I totally agree with you. Actually, i think that it's really a fine line, and I do think that some people that start these places do have very school-ish mindsets others don't but the pressure from the parents of what they wanted to look like to meet their needs make it very challenging to run it in a way that maybe goes in alignment with the original vision, and so yeah, Exactly, and it's very hard structurally. 

0:23:09 - Cecilie Conrad
I get that. It's just every time we dip our toe, get close to something like that, i get the feeling these things, you know, you have to show up, that's one thing. You have to be there, maybe not five times a week, but there's some rules of some sort And I think there's an anarchist gene and I'm probably have like 60 of them. So whenever there's a rule, i kind of get everything itches And that's about me. I know that, but I get. I'm just saying I can't have it. So if I'm trying to find community for my three young school children and they have to show up already that one I'm like, but no, and, but they can go if they want to But if I'm like signing off three of their days each week beforehand, promising that they will want to come, then to me it's very much copying a system that we're trying to avoid. So I'm just curious how do you do that? How do you avoid? 

0:24:21 - Sari González
Thank you for that And how many in college? Yeah, and I'll be really honest, like it's been a journey And I kid the Sadi now is so different than the Sadi like five years ago, running a center, you know where I was totally schoolish And you know the agile model was like I couldn't think about like leaving the cycle of learning. You know, and over the years it was the questioning of that, it was the leaning into, this doesn't feel right, like, oh, my son doesn't want to go. Like, oh, he's neurodivergent and has other needs that aren't being addressed and met. Like this doesn't feel right And we're supposed to be in community. So it's like now it's clear to me what schoolishness within these systems, in these programs, look like. 

But back then I didn't know, you know, i didn't know, And it was part of my journey to recognize that, and we recognize that within our community, and that's what led us to really want to radically change. It was to question, like you know what this thing, when we get together and like have to make intentions every single day and like half of the kids don't want to do that, why are we doing this? Like who are we doing this for? And so anytime the answer was we're doing this for somebody else. So we're doing this because this has been, this is how it's been done, without really asking what do the young people want, what do we want as families, what works for us? And that's been just an ongoing process, and I feel really good about where we're at right now because I think it's super interesting. Both Beck and I, like neither one of our kids, wanted to be at the Agile Learning Center, and so that was like okay, then what the hell are? 

0:26:19 - Jesper Conrad
we doing? What's the point? I'm bringing some change as well. 

0:26:22 - Becka Koritz
Something needs to change. Yeah, and I think also I mean that thing said there's so many kids that did love it and that do love it and that just thrive in that setting where they come in and there's, like other people there, different ages, so many fun things to do. I think that, like for me, what I understand sometimes is, behind the like you commit to being there is because at least the way we work is that we're so focused on creating relationships and creating the culture through these relationships. And so if we're running now only a four week immersion program, if kids come in once a week, then they'll miss out on making those relationships and they'll miss out on the process of creating agreements that work. And like how we solve problems And that is not always so easy. 

Like that can create a lot of like, eh in the process, but the focus is all the time like it's on the relationship, not on are they learning or not learning, but rather like how can we exist together and make it a smooth process for everyone, including, obviously, all of the adults, if they're facilitating or if they're just being parents. Like how can we create a community that flows? because so many people talk about community, so many people are looking for community. But if we don't shift our mindsets in how we behave towards one another, how we speak to one another, how we solve problems together, then in those communities we're just gonna repeat the same patterns that we're seeing reflected in society. So for us that piece is like super important. How do we create culture? How can we like really really focus on the relationship building piece? 

0:28:26 - Sari González
I think a big piece, like when I think about your example, Cecile, is like it's Cecile, right? Am I saying your name right? Yeah, Wow, Okay. Is that if you are a community member, right, and it doesn't work for you to come in all the days, then that there is an opportunity for us to come together to understand those needs, not to judge them, criticize them or like put them to the side, be like, okay, you're a valuable human, like part of this community, like I wanna understand what's going on for you and your family and like co-create the culture together. So maybe, after we share with one another what is going on for us in our worlds and what it is that you know our families need, then it's like, oh, okay, well, I'm willing to X, Y, Z. And so I have to say that there are tools from the agile world that have been extremely helpful, that we've adopted and have expanded on to support us to come together to be able to share our needs with one another in a way that we can co-create the experience together and the culture together. 

And I find that really helpful, because I do think that it is really hard to come into something when you're not a part of having created it. When your voice isn't, you don't have a space for your voice to be heard or for your needs to be heard, And so I've always been. I do have that anarchist gene in me, for sure, but I also have come to appreciate some structure when the purpose of it is to support people to be heard, And so that's kind of that's the extent of the structure that I like to lead on, always open for adaptation, but understanding that it's a tool and it could be used or it can't be used, but there's purpose to that. 

0:30:18 - Jesper Conrad
Yeah, Where we are in our lives now, we our children at home is 11, 14 and 17,. and then we have a grown up daughter who is 24. And we can see they just want more people in the same age range they can hang out with and have fun with. 

0:30:39 - Cecilie Conrad
Which is a quite big age range. 

0:30:41 - Jesper Conrad
Yeah. 

0:30:42 - Cecilie Conrad
They just. It's not enough with the toddlers anymore. 

0:30:47 - Jesper Conrad
No. So what we are doing is that while we are traveling, we are traveling between people or events, like there's these world school pop-up hubs that we have attended. One of them that turned in. It was one month where we were immersed into being together with 14 other families. It was co-living, and when we talk about culture there, it was interesting to see that when we arrived everything was new for us, but half the people, or almost everybody, knew each other up front, so, and then we didn't know, so it took us some time to come into the culture. And then there was during the one month, there was one week, there was a pop-up And after evaluating it, it should have been in the start, because the people who came for just one week, the children they had to come into a very tight knit group of friends and it was, of course, difficult. So I can see how to create the culture in an immersion. If people are only there for some days must be challenging. 

0:31:58 - Sari González
That's one of the reasons why we stepped away from having a full year program is that here, where we are, it's very transitory, so there are a lot of people that kind of come in and come out And so which is beautiful we were really trying to build on the ground community and we were like, no, you can't come in and out for a month because it kind of shakes things up and we don't have the support to co-create culture within that timeframe. 

And then we were like why are we doing this Again? that questioning, that constant questioning like this doesn't feel right, it's not working. And so really wanting to embrace and create space for it to be more inclusive as well meant that we had to really reimagine what it looked like and step away from this more like traditional school year to seeing like let's just do this, pop up, like this feels better and it supports people to come for that month. you know, like if they're passing through Mexico and they're just here for a month, it's like great, let's be in community for this month and then you go on your way and then some people come back because we really have built connections, and then some people kind of go away. So that's the agility part that I've taken from the agile world. that has really worked for me, like not that I've redefined it for myself. you know that it doesn't have to be one way, that it can look many different ways. 

0:33:25 - Cecilie Conrad
I think, especially the element that you're breaking it up into smaller parts so that you can. It's a very interesting dynamic between the personal freedom that I think all four of us are very happy to have And the need for community, because the need for community demands some commitment that will take away the freedom, and this is it's a hard balance to find. So if I am to commit for a month, i'm happy to do that. If I am to commit for forever, then I just know I can't do it. I went to that castle to co live with 14 families for a month. Everyone were freedom people. Everyone so strange. The first days we all were like, okay, this will be fun because we know we're leaving in a month. We all felt it and it worked perfectly. Yeah, i think it's. It's. This is one dynamic that this we just have to acknowledge that it's there. 

0:34:41 - Jesper Conrad
I would love to talk a little about making a podcast. So you have the radical learning podcast and we feel like newbies. So how did you start on that travel and what has it changed in your lives? 

0:34:59 - Becka Koritz
Wow, yeah, i mean I, i got the idea A couple of years ago I think it's two years ago now. I was like sorry, i think we should have a podcast And and Saudi was like Why? I'm like I just think it's a good idea. I think, you know, we talk so much and we have so many ideas and we should just record it and post it there. So that's how it started, really. 

0:35:28 - Sari González
I think it was also because we were having these really juicy conversations and we were, you know, just being so vulnerable with one another and as we were developing our friendship and our relationship, and it was kind of like wouldn't it be cool to just record these conversations and share them, because then other people would come to us with like questions or we're like Yeah, we just talked about this the other day And it became, yeah, i was just like let's just, let's just do this. And even that journey has evolved a lot like I think my experience and first recording the podcast was like very like, okay, we have to like was like it was structured and, you know, we wanted to make sure we had access to people at the end and the conversation it still felt very orchestrated in a way. And then, i think, less and less became so because we were de schooling our podcast. We were like always questioning, like how does this feel? what feels awkward? Why do we feel pressure to have to be or say something in a certain way, like what is the message we're trying to get across? what is the purpose? 

I think I feel really good about where the podcast is at right now, because when we want to do it, we do it, and when we don't, when we're not feeling it, we don't. And you know we were really just we're having a lot of fun with it, like it's just fun. For us, it's an opportunity to get together and to be creative and to have those juicy conversations, but also now understanding that people are actually listening. It's fun because we've had people like thank you so much, and I'm like, oh, cool, people are listening to these conversations. So now for me, it's added this layer of like responsibility, but like joyful responsibility, where it's like, yeah, like I actually have an opportunity to create an impact in this, and it's by sharing my voice and our voice and our stories take it or leave it. And so it's been a playground. It's become like a little playground, which is fine. 

0:37:34 - Becka Koritz
What has I would say what has really shifted for us is that now people are coming to our trainings and offerings through the podcast And that is amazing. That is really like wow. So that, like they, if they have listened, they know what we think, they know more or less how, how we are, and they want more of that. So it's, it's really nice. Actually, it feels like, oh, they're in alignment. Before we might have had offerings and people would have come without really knowing us And they would be maybe surprised or maybe disappointed, what do I know? but actually getting people that want more of what we're already giving is amazing. 

0:38:24 - Sari González
And I would say the practice of vulnerability has been huge for me Because it was Becca's idea and I was like I don't know, i don't think, you know, like those voices of not being good enough and like being private about my things, and really seeing that change within myself has been very liberating and being able to be vulnerable in a way that feels safe, It has been really, really beautiful. 

0:38:58 - Jesper Conrad
One thing I enjoy is that when we set to record a podcast, we do it where we talk with people all the time, never just us talking together, and I wonder about what we have talked about for the week after. And and it has actually also drawn something into my own life when we're let me retrace when we sit down to have a podcast and one of me is thinking, okay, now I actually want to learn something myself, but it should also be interesting and not hopefully that somebody want to listen to it. And I'm sometimes retrace that into my personal life, thinking so why shouldn't I have this when I'm also not having a podcast? Remember to talk with people more in depth, because I'm, i'm I'm sometimes missing the, the deeper conversations in everyday life, but you know, not with you We don't talk so much. 

0:40:05 - Becka Koritz
Imagine where they go. 

0:40:25 - Cecilie Conrad
And then we have to talk to people who have written amazing books, and then you kind of have to sit down, read the book first And yeah, so that that part of the journey has been quite great and we meet people and yeah, and I have the same experience there Someone suddenly writing us an email saying that was just what they needed to hear before joining the the podcast today I listened to one of your episodes with this young teenagers who have been on school to herself And it made me want to talk a little about un-parenting under the label of unschooling, because I don't think what she shared. 

0:41:11 - Jesper Conrad
I was like that's not unschooling, it sounds more like un-parenting. So how often do you meet that and see that when the people you work with What do you disagree? 

0:41:28 - Sari González
Yeah, i'm also trying to understand because my experience I think you're you're referring to the interview with Ophelia. 

0:41:34 - Jesper Conrad
Yes. 

0:41:36 - Sari González
Ophelia is a wonderful being that I met at the ASD SDE weekend. Was it ASD yet? The ASD SDE weekend? They were on a panel, a youth panel, and there was discussion around just like supporting young people to have voice in this movement. And something that I really appreciate from that dialogue, as well as the dialogue that we had with them in our podcast episode, was this understanding that the unschooling movement has been so focused on the adults. 

Yeah Right, what are we doing to unlearn and relearn and do all the things? I mean a lot of our work is to support the parents and the adults, but that this like proposing this question of who is this really for? Is it for the adults to re-parent themselves and to kind of re-live or get to revisit maybe some things in their lives that they wish had gone differently and do something different? Or is it truly to support young people to be free? And so just that question that was proposed by them for me is a question that I think we really need to focus on and highlight and talk more about in our circles, because I do see that there is a lack of representation of young people in the work that we do, and so my hope is that, more and more, there are spaces that are for and by young people, for them to share their voices, their questions, their experience, and there are people that are doing amazing work in this, and this is something that, within radical learning, we are really questioning and trying to understand, like, how can we support there to be more youth voice in the work that we do? So I didn't quite understand your question. 

Do you want to re-ask it? 

0:43:48 - Jesper Conrad
I think your answer was really good. I think your answer was better than the question And I think what I have met through our travels parents who on school where I think that is there is this line between some people are radical on schoolers in a way where they mean that the children need totally freedom from everything. And I'm not all the way there, because I think you need to be true toward yourself being a parent. But I actually think the dialogue you raised here is much more interesting than how much are we doing this for our own sake and our own freedom, and how often is it for the children's? 

0:44:39 - Sari González
Yeah, and I would say, for our own healing. How much are we doing this for our own healing, versus or not versus? and how much are we doing this to truly support young people? young people, period. 

And I've realized, like we said earlier, i mean, but neither one of our sons actually wanted, joyfully wanted, to go to the community that we were creating, and so that was like a hard stop for me. It was like, and I'm spending like 14 hours a day doing this work, like, and I'm not with my young person, like why am I doing this? Oh, i'm doing this to stroke my ego, oh, i'm doing this because I have my own healing work to do. And so that moment was so huge because it was like, okay, if I truly want to support myself and my family and my son, then I need to actually put that time and energy in into that. And and yeah, i mean, i think unschooling, de-schooling is healing work, but it's when, when our actions, our words or behaviors or decisions are made just from the perspective of our own healing, that I think is like a really slippery slope And it's something that I've started questioning more and more. 

0:46:05 - Cecilie Conrad
So to me, our journey began when our second child was born and we had a mid, a friend who was planning to unschool or at least homeschool, and at that time our oldest child was just starting in a radical free style school in Copenhagen. I don't think it was to me a healing project When, when? so what happened between ours? So then we had our third child and we still had this friend and it was the puzzling idea. And then I had the cancer disease And I was lucky enough to survive it. When I came back from the hospital It was an easy decision to take them out of kindergarten because we didn't know if I would survive long term. So we just knew that we needed whatever time we could have together. And then we had another child and then came the age of school for our second child and he said I don't want to go to school, it's not for me, might be for the other kids, but it's not for me. And the short version is that we said, okay, we were already home, the four of us. Our oldest child was still in the radical school and she's much older. She's six or seven years older than the second one. So it was, in a way did make sense for her to go do something else, because the house was full of an exhausted cancer survivor with three small children And she was a teenager. She needed to do something else. But I don't think it was ever a healing. I could have done with a different kind of healing at the time. It was really hard work for me. I just beat cancer, just had a fourth child, had a C section, was completely physically exhausted and just wanted to do what made sense And for me, the keeping my children out of the school system. 

In the beginning it was just my son didn't want to go and I said okay, you don't want to go, you can stay home, it's okay. And we did the homeschooling and transcend it to unschooling pretty fast. But over the years it's grown into. I really don't believe in the school system. It doesn't have to do with having special needs or delicate personalities or any kind of autism spectrum things or extra intelligence or whatever. And while lots of people with these situations come to homeschooling, from that point of view I think that the whole idea of the mandatory schooling, the public schooling, the forest schooling, the compulsory education, is just a weapon of mass destruction and and we, we, we just, i just want my children not to be part of it. There are other elements in life that I would hardly hard, hard that I would make sure that they didn't become part of, because I believe it's wrong. 

0:49:30 - Sari González
Can I ask you a question? Do you feel that that system has harmed you or your family or society in any way? 

0:49:38 - Cecilie Conrad
Obviously and obviously I need a healing, like everyone else needs healing. But I don't think that the homeschooling, unschooling of my children is about my healing. I think those processes are parallel processes. I'm a mother of four children. I've been a mother for more than half of my life now And it's just part of life. It's not a job that I do, it's not a mask I put on, it's not an element of my personality. It's just part of what it is to be human that I have offspring and I look after it And and, just like everyone else basically just like everyone else human I have scars and I work with them and I have a personality that will unfold. Hopefully to the end of my days I will find more nuances and it's not all about healing and being broken and having to peel off layers. It's also just about unfolding and blooming. 

0:50:34 - Sari González
Yeah, but I do think And and I think that part of the work that we do is about dismantling systems of oppression, and I think that there is a part of my journey that has really recognized my internalization of a lot of these systems. 

And so when I talk about this work being healing, i'm also talking about it being a collective healing, and I do feel, and I think it's beautiful, and I don't think everybody has to feel this way, and I don't think that everybody's journey looks the same and I don't think everybody's reason. 

I'm just speaking from my personal experience And I think that in what I'm learning, what I'm unpacking and be learning, and also this sense and I think this is going back to radical learning this is kind of what the work that that moves us and inspires us is about the collective perspective and that when we talk about a system that is broken, we are also talking about history, we're talking about systemic oppression and that, as in being part of this movement, we are consciously, we are radical learning in our families, like consciously making a choice to take, like to be responsible about dismantling those systems. 

So that has a lot to do with the language that I'm using around like it being healing is that I do believe that, as we step away from these systems, it's not just about stepping away from them, but it's about changing them and naming the oppression, naming our privilege, our power. You know we're four white people here talking, and so maybe it's not so healing for us, but there are people that have been marginalized that to them, this could be healing in a way, and so I think that that is just something that I am always thinking about now that I didn't used to think about when I first started unschooling. It was very much a me thing, and me and my family and I'm doing this for us. And now I'm really thinking about, like the we going back to the we like the collective, and how can I support all people to be free? And so, um, yeah, it's, it's. I just felt that it was important to say that. 

0:53:09 - Becka Koritz
Yeah, and I think that I would like to add to that that like for me, the day schooling work is really about being able to recognize where I have been disempowered as a human, growing up in a society that has been created through school, through putting people in school, and what is it that I have incorporated by living in a society where the norm is going to school and where the norm is it looks, in a specific way, like how we should live lives. Like you have broken free from that kind of society, so have we, and I think that still there are patterns and habits in us that are still perpetuating those, those norms that we grew up with. And so, for me, the day schooling work is about looking at like where am I, where am I being disempowering to others? where am I doing harm to others without even noticing, and how can I make it stop? How can I change that so that I stop being part of a system that I feel has caused a lot of harm all over the world? 

0:54:30 - Cecilie Conrad
But I totally degree, degree, every degree. Okay, it's the longest night a day. Yeah, tired, there's a lot of light here, we don't sleep. No, i totally agree. 

And if I had a little hostility before, it's not about the whole D, schooling and healing and how. What did I mean? I'm quite sure, and and I have been quite sure for quite a long time, that we're totally changing the world by what we're doing and and and it's it's a massive effect. People like you and ourselves will have a huge impact on on that. That very big communal society of compulsory schooling that we are all part of. It's important work that we're doing just by living this life and by healing ourselves, evolving, learning, understanding. What I disagreed with, at least on a personal level, is that that I'm not doing it for my children. I let my children let as if I was the king. I'm not the king. Maybe we were kings and queens of our family 1012 years ago when, when they were newborn and we were beginners in this journey. But Our kids are not in school and they can do whatever they want, basically as long as no one is hurt and we're all safe, and it's within the budget And that's how. That's the frame basically. 

Yeah, and that's what I'm looking for looks like for us, and that's not about my healing. 

0:56:18 - Becka Koritz
No, I think that what I hear from you is like you're following your kids. Like when your kids said I don't want to go to school, you were like cool, And I think that that was not so cool with it. 

Okay, anyway, i said, you said yeah, and then we worked for you here, yeah, but I think that that is like, like when we listen to our kids, when we observe them and when we like follow their lead, that is where. 

That is where it is. 

I mean, like I don't want to say that there's a right or wrong way, but that is what I want to go from, like I want to listen to my kid because I didn't when he was younger. 

I was I'm not going to say that I was convinced that it was the best for him. I saw that he was suffering, but I couldn't imagine how I would like get out of what I had created. Like I felt so much responsibility for all these other families And so, like, what feels really good for me, i think it is the same for you and I think actually, zadie, it's the same for you to that we're in tune with our kids now. We're listening to what they want, and that is very different from other parents that I have observed and I don't want to judge them, but where I see that they have an idea of how they want to live life And they think that it is the best and they think it's going to give their kids freedom. But they haven't checked in with their kids And I think that I think that that is like. 

That is what I think it is quite common, and that is what I heard from, like, when we were talking to Ophelia, that they were like Ah, like their mom did not ask if it was okay to unschool. If Ophelia had had a say, she would not have unschooled, and I think that I think that it is something that is important to talk about. Like, what do we do as parents? Are we doing this because we find it's a really amazing idea? Are our kids on board, yes or no? Like, is there consent? 

0:58:29 - Cecilie Conrad
I just think it's a slippery slope with the small ones, because when children are small, when they are four, five, six years old, they're surrounded by a society with the school as this huge axiom. It's just, it just penetrates everything, especially around small children, and they are already being trained that they should be proud to be a little older, they should be proud to have the next skill. They shouldn't play with someone three years old if they're five and they're already, you know, exercising this idea and everyone around a five year old will be all excited about Oh, you're starting school this August, aren't you? Would you just not be about that? That will be fun. Did you get a new box for your pencils, whatever? And everybody is so excited about it. 

And in the supermarkets, the spot things that you can get only this week will be the little trainee math thing, and they can sit and play school in the summer break and everything is. it's just such a huge machine And I think we have to save our children from that. I think, actually, that parents are allowed to not ask them at that point because they are too small to understand what they are actually entering. 

0:59:54 - Jesper Conrad
But they're fighting against What? 

0:59:55 - Cecilie Conrad
they are fighting against, and I think we have to save them from that. 

1:00:01 - Sari González
I hear what you're saying Later on. 

1:00:02 - Cecilie Conrad
You can ask them. 

1:00:04 - Sari González
And I would agree with that. Like I didn't ask three year old Si if he wanted to go pre-care, whatever. You know what I mean. Definitely, i think there's like certain moments where you begin to have conversations with your young people, depending on their development and their understanding. But I do think that there are tools and I call them tools because I've come to use them as tools whether somebody sees it and uses it or, you know, agrees with that or not. 

I'm just speaking from my perspective that, like Becca touched upon consent. Like I think that there's still a lot of things that we adults have internalized and ways in which we have communicated or learned to not communicate with our young people that we can begin to change without having, like explicit conversations with their young people about what it is that we're actually doing. You know what I mean. So it's like consents. Like you can still develop a culture and a practice of consent with your young person When they're, you know, when they're younger, without having to name it as such or without having to say, like I'm going to ask you for your consent for every little thing. Like I think, if you look at your family as a culture or your relationship as a culture, like there are still things that we can begin to craft and develop and undo from our past experience as we bring it into parenting. That has nothing to do with sitting and saying like, hey, do you want to go to pre-K? And I think that that's to me also. 

What I consider as the de-schooling work is like looking at how we, how our person, has been affected by these systems and what is the language we're using, what are the actions, what are our behaviors, what are our thoughts as we are interacting with our young people, and how we can like shift that so that it's more equitable and so that you know, when they are old enough to have conversations with them, they're like, hey, these are the choices I've made. For these reasons, like, what do you think about it? Like, do I ask my son all the time? Like, do you want to go to school? Like, if you want to go to school, like, i support that. Like if that's an experience you want to have, we're going to have many conversations around it. But, yeah, i think it is really important to think, to constantly think about the why, like why am I doing this? Why is this important? Who is this for? How am I communicating? 

1:02:38 - Jesper Conrad
I have a question about anxiety and support and fear, and it's not just to phrase it no, no, no, no. The thing is taking home the responsibility of your child's life, as you do as a stay at home mom, dad, homeschool, unschooled parent. It is terrifying. I know we are sitting here and we've seen kind of relaxed and cool about it now, but I remember I was scared And I needed in our life, i needed Cecilia to do more homeschool based in the start, because that was what I was growing up with And what I knew as being okay. If they can do their math, if they can read and write, then I feel more safe. And not to go into our personal story, how it developed. But how do you, when you support the parents out there, you help? How do you? what tools do you talk with them about? Because it is scary to take home the responsibility. It's so much easier just to put your child in school and think now everything is all right. 

1:03:51 - Cecilie Conrad
And you're like peeing your pants. It's not easier. 

1:03:54 - Jesper Conrad
It is mentally easier. At the point of doing it, You feel that you've placed the responsibility somewhere else. But taking it home is scary. 

1:04:02 - Cecilie Conrad
I believe in it. You just can't believe it. 

1:04:06 - Sari González
Thank you same And for voicing that, because I don't think that many people, especially male body people, say that, And so thank you for naming that. 

1:04:18 - Jesper Conrad
Yeah. 

1:04:19 - Becka Koritz
Yeah, and I think that, like what has been the focus from the beginning has been, like, i'm big on catalyzing thought processes in people. I am not here to tell people what to think or what to do, but what I really enjoy in our work is helping people figure that out for themselves. Like, how has? how was it to go to school? Like, what is it that you really learned? Like, of all the stuff that we went through during our 12 years in school or I don't know how many years you know, depending on on the country and the system? like, how much of that do you really remember today? Like, and when we think about it and we're like Oh, actually I don't remember so much of that, why did we have to spend so much time on it? And do I really believe that I can't learn these things as a 45 year old or a 52 year old? Do we think that I can only learn these things there? 

Like, starting to really think about what is it that we learned in school? Was it really content Or was it the context? And so, by supporting the thought process in people, letting them come to those conclusions themselves where they're like Fuck, what I learned in school was to sit still shut up and copy And if I made a mistake, that was punished. Why we make mistakes all the time living life we're not punished for it. Actually, that is where we take so much learning from, and so I think that, basically, like, what we do in our work is is supporting people to think for themselves, because the fact is, we were not taught to have critical thinking. The school system was never built to develop critical thinking. On the contrary, it was developed to hinder critical thinking, and so when we have all these questions like and all these fears come up, it is just proof how the system really works. 

1:06:40 - Sari González
And so, yeah, it's about learning how to critically think about our upbringing, our learning process, how it really happens, and yeah, Yeah, i would add to that, and the reason why I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for your vulnerability, jesper, is that I think that it's really important and this is kind of goes into what we were talking about before about the healing work like I think it is important to take time and create space to think about how we have been impacted, like Becca was saying about, from our own schooling experience, even if we didn't go to school, you know, like whatever it looked like, because those fears like so it's something like that. So my first go to my first curiosity is like what happened? like what are you scared about? like what is fearful for you? like let's talk about it, let's unpack that and understand what that fear is about. Because unless we do like we don't do that work, then we're not covering it up. And that is when we started to unschool for ourselves, because we're not really dealing with all the things that are coming up for us, but like kind of pushing through, and it's almost like this barrier, like that, doesn't help us connect with our young people and our unschooling process. And so I think, like in terms of tools, vulnerability is a big one, communication is a big one, like just holding space for us to to just understand how we've been impacted and be okay with that, like something that I find really scary. 

Talking about fear in the unschooling world is that there is a lot of dogma and I've been guilty of that myself in my process But this idea that it has to be one way and it has to look a certain way, and that unschooling is defined as such, it's like who the fuck decides that? Who defines what that is for anybody? Who's to say that one person is unschooling better or worse than the other? It really is dependent on your family and what works for you. What I will say is that, for me, a core value of unschooling for me and my family and our shared community is consent and is also honesty, raw honesty about who we are and how we're showing up in that moment. 

And so I think when I hear people say I'm scared of shit, it's like good, you should be, that means you're in it. If you are like, oh, this is easy, this is great, no, i'm going to do this thing, and yeah, and blah, blah, blah, but you're not dealing with that, like then that's also how we've been programmed to be by the system. It's like just shut it down, put that away, put that away. No, you're scared. 

1:09:43 - Jesper Conrad
Congratulations I mean, if I could meet myself back from when we started and say to myself you know what? in 10 years you were just in love, enjoying, living your life with your children, not caring if they learn anything, because you trust in them, i would look at myself and think that guy is crazy. I need some structure here. I need to know that it's going. And I mean it's kind of a hard advice to give people. It's like, do you want to unskoo? Yeah, just chill. But what should I do with my kids? Whatever, just have fun, Enjoy your life, it will all work out. And now we can see it actually can work out. But man, i'm not sure I could have listened to it back then. 

1:10:28 - Cecilie Conrad
In some ways, our perspective is I don't know, We've known each other for an hour. 

1:10:35 - Jesper Conrad
So that's fair. 

1:10:36 - Cecilie Conrad
I don't really know, but I think we succeeded and we keep succeeding, because it's an ongoing process to take the idea of school out of our lives, the idea of curriculum, the idea of learning as a goal in and of itself, and also the idea that we, the adults, get to decide. We don't work with the idea of consent. I'll have to think about that for a while after this conversation. I use the word voluntary a lot. Maybe it's also different because we are a larger family. As I understand it, you each have one child, which is a very, very, very different structural situation, because we basically have chaos. That's it. And now that they are a little older, we have a very beautiful, peaceful chaos, but we don't get to decide what's going on. 

When you have four small children at the same time, it's basically just cooking meals and putting out fires and cleaning the floor and washing the clothes. It's really as different. And there are so many more relations within the family, so many more dynamics, so much going on. It's very different. So maybe that's why consent is between two persons And we are just this huge wobbly thing. So that might be the reason. I don't know, i'll have to think about that? 

1:12:19 - Becka Koritz
I don't know. I don't think so actually, cecilia, because if you run a center, that we have done that has been consent-based, and then you have a lot more kids than three or four. But what I hear is it's not about the amount of people. I think it might be only a difference of wording. Yeah, i don't know, because we don't know each other that well. 

1:12:46 - Cecilie Conrad
No, we're working on it. But the other thing is that we took the idea learning is not really part of our equation anymore. We don't get up in the morning and unschool. I mean, it's not what we do. Unschooling is not a thing. we do It's a thing we don't do. 

1:13:10 - Becka Koritz
No, i think that we live And I don't think in our families that we think a lot about learning per se. I think in the beginning it was like I didn't think, oh, now we need to do these specific things because Theo and I have never, ever, sat down to try to concretely learn something. I think in the beginning I was a little bit more concerned of the things that I thought that maybe he would need, but we never did any learning until this day. We just live. We just live our lives. And then he is very focused on very specific subjects and topics like that. He themes that he finds fascinating And he's learning Tom's, but it doesn't look like what you do in a school And it has nothing to do with what you do in a school, because it's his specific interests and those you can't even study in school. I mean, it's all about the agenda. 

1:14:21 - Cecilie Conrad
So to me, it's all about the agenda. Is there a learning agenda or is there a living agenda? Is it? about being passionate about something and being really interested in something and therefore diving into it. Then we sit down and learn. We sit down and study within our family because something is fascinating, But we're not doing it because we have to learn something. 

1:14:46 - Becka Koritz
No, we don't do that. We have to be in the shift. Yeah, yeah, we don't do that. 

1:14:52 - Sari González
Something that is important to me, my family, our community is understanding power, and I alluded to this Sorry, i spoke a little bit to this And I think for me, unschooling, de-schooling, is not about learning. 

Well, it is about learning in the sense that it's opportunity to learn about ourselves and each other in the world, like we focus on living, which gives us those opportunities once we lean into living and we stop putting energy into other stuff. But for me, what I've learned is that my journey has been so much about recognizing my power and recognizing how those systems. So it's like we're all in agreement We don't believe in the school system And we've stepped away from that And we're trying not to repeat those systems. But for me, it's about recognizing the power, how we've been disempowered by those systems and how we disempower through those systems And we can step away from school And we can forget about the curriculum And we can just focus on living. But if we aren't relating to ourselves, to each other, to our young people in different ways that are not based on power and adult supremacy, because that's really we're talking about. 

1:16:21 - Cecilie Conrad
Yeah, that's a hard one. 

1:16:23 - Sari González
Then like then what are we doing? We're just living without. 

1:16:31 - Cecilie Conrad
We're not changing a lot if we're not walking away from the ageism concept. 

1:16:37 - Sari González
Yeah, for sure, that's for sure, yeah, and I mean we're stepping away from school, which is awesome. For me personally, unschooling is more than just not going to school. It's about unearthing that and recognizing like, ok, where am I disempowering myself and others And what can I do instead to make it more equitable And so we can actually share our lives? 

And where I'm not telling my kid what he needs to do, at the same time being really clear about what my boundaries are. I need to go to bed right now. I have to wake up in the morning. This does not work for me right now. So talk a little back to your question, jesper. Like the tools like nonviolent communication and decolonize nonviolent communication, specifically somatics, intuition like all of these have been huge tools for us as we develop our own unschooling language and ways of unlearning and relearning together. 

1:17:36 - Cecilie Conrad
Mm, sounds like you're having a lot of fun. 

1:17:41 - Sari González
Yeah, and fun and play, I love it. Which is actually really hard for me, like I didn't grow up playing. I was an only child that started working at 13 in Brooklyn, new York, and so play was hard, like when I started facilitating and you know, even in our unschooling life, like it was hard for me to play. I didn't know how to do it. I didn't do that so much as a kid, and so it's been a real like journey of reclaiming play in my life, which has been beautiful. 

1:18:16 - Cecilie Conrad
Wonderful. I think we kind of have to reschedule Yeah Or not re. But not extra schedule. It's like always not like always, but it happens quite frequently that it seems like we could talk another two hours. Yeah, We should do that on another day. 

1:18:32 - Jesper Conrad
I would love to do that on another day, but for ending this podcast episode, i would love for you to say a little about radical learning and how people, if they enjoy the connecting, listening to you here and getting in touch with you. 

1:18:50 - Sari González
Becca, you want to go for it? 

1:18:52 - Becka Koritz
I can go for it. So first of all would be to check out Radical Learning Talks, which is our podcast. It's biweekly Or at least we try to make it biweekly And there's just a lot of juicy stuff in there so many different topics we talk about and also a lot of interesting interviews. And then I would go to Instagram, because that's where we're having a lot of fun. We're having a lot of fun on Instagram and it is basically the yeah like radical underscore learning And that's where you find us. And if you want to check out our website, it is radical-learningorg And that's where you can find our offerings when we do group coaching sessions or trainings in person. And is there anything else we should add to this? Adi? 

1:19:46 - Sari González
I want to talk about how much fun we have with our offerings, specifically and offering the shit. It's a seven day de-schooling intensive. We just finished one in which we collaborated with My Reflection Matters and Cocos de Oro Unschooling Community in Borrique, puerto Rico, and we just have a lot of fun with that. It's a lot of play. It's a lot about looking at these things that we're talking about like systems of oppression and different communication, and what does unschooling mean and look like for us and how can we build community Because it is so much helpful when we can connect with one another like this, like, hey, you're doing the thing, you're like how's it going for you, what's working, what's challenging? So yeah, that training we were done for this year, but hopefully next year we'll run a few And if you're interested in anybody that's listening, interested in us bringing it to your community you have a seriously de-schooling group of people reach out to us. We're also open to that. 

1:20:53 - Becka Koritz
So yeah, And then we have our group coaching program, which is fabulous, and one new starting up in October, and that is not in person, it is online, but it is live And it's a really, really amazing three-month-long program. 

1:21:10 - Jesper Conrad
Perfect And we should end it here And I think we down the line in our podcast. You take at least one more talk. It has been a big pleasure. Thank you for your time. 

1:21:20 - Sari González
Thank you. 

1:21:21 - Cecilie Conrad
Thank you for having us, it was fun. 

1:21:25 - Jesper Conrad
Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed today's episode And if you liked it, then please share it with all your friends and family. We would also love it if you gave our podcast a review. Thanks, and if you want to support our podcast and work, then you can find us on patreoncom slash the Conrad family. We will continue to travel full time And if you want to tag along, then please follow us on Facebook and Instagram at the Conrad family, and you can also read more than 100 blog posts on our website, theconradfamily. Until next time, make a wonderful day, thank you.